Unbanning players that DDossed

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Kwaakt
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Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Kwaakt »

Hey everyone,

I have some concerns about players that ddos the servers. For me this is quite a bad kind of behaviour. Even worse then cheating. Besides it has a impact on the server. It destroys the gameplay for lots of players. It also can has a effect on the community around the servers cause the website is also shut down/slower.

Yet at this moment the players that actually ddossed are easily unbanned. Its harder to get unbanned when you cheated then when you ddossed. This in my eyes should be the other way around. Its quite a job to protect the system against a ddos. Not only for the host, also the research behind it. Who was it. Restarting the servers. It takes for a lot of people alot of time. Especially when real damage has been done.

The impact of a ddos attack is quite bigger then a single cheat. If a player decides to harm the community this way it should be punished. At least equal with cheaters. But I prefer even further. A longer permbam time. 150-200% of the time that is set for cheaters.

Anyone that shares my opion or has other ideas about this?
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Jellow »

Not commenting on if I share your oppinion or not, but do you realise that we had an admin that ddos'd?

I would find it very odd if we would suddenly start treating ddosing like something worse then cheating while we actually allow them back in the most inner circle ND has?
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Konijn »

Jellow wrote:Not commenting on if I share your oppinion or not, but do you realise that we had an admin that ddos'd?

I would find it very odd if we would suddenly start treating ddosing like something worse then cheating while we actually allow them back in the most inner circle ND has?
We also had an admin who was formally banned for cheating as well.

Personally I think 11 months is a long enough period to allow someone to come back and have another chance at integrating into the community, especially when that chance they have is a case of "you fuck up again and you're immediately out".
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Shadi »

I don't know.

It's an online community first of all I don't see why we should be so strict about it. People do mistakes because they think they can detach themselves from the community. It's not like anybody dies, it's an illegal act and we shouldn't support it but it also requires investigation and it's also making it our business.

A year's waiting time to get to play on an online community (for cheating) is already a gigantic waiting time imo, and the fact that an unban request a year later already proves the person likes the community.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Kwaakt »

Is ddossing rated lower then cheating? Thats just not logic.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Shadi »

Kwaakt wrote:Is ddossing rated lower then cheating? Thats just not logic.
Not logic you agree with*
That view is narrow-minded.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Kwaakt »

So your opinion is indeed that ddossing does less harm to the community then cheating.

That really suprises me. :o
Last edited by Kwaakt on Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Shadi »

Kwaakt wrote:So your opinion is indeed that ddossing does less harm to the community then cheating.

That really suprises me. :o
I never stated my opinion on the severity of either of the offences.

To me neither should last a year, though.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Kwaakt »

if you take the step to cheat, ddoss, there is a serious action that follows to it. A year of ban time is legit. We are even so kind to give them a chance after that time. Its good that they have such a long time to think about it.

Thats your weakness shadi that you find a year to long. It isnt.

Im not saying they never should get a chance, they should. But lowering the unban time of a cheater? ddosser? :think: :doh:
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Shadi »

Kwaakt wrote:if you take the step to cheat, ddoss, there is a serious action that follows to it. A year of ban time is legit. We are even so kind to give them a chance after that time. Its good that they have such a long time to think about it.
"Even so kind" we aren't royal family, world or country leaders. We are gamers.

I didn't say it wasn't a legit bantime, just said that I think it should be lower.
Kwaakt wrote: Thats your weakness shadi that you find a year to long. It isnt.
I refuse to see my kindness in this matter as weakness. I also dissent with your appraisement on the matter.
Jailbreak and the community's upheaval commenced 2009, so being banned for a year is being banned 1/6 of the community's existence.
365 days are almost 9000 hours, I fail to see how this is a short time - personally. Again, this is my opinion on the matter; I am not saying you are wrong because we all have our opinions. I am just stating that I do not concur with your view and me not agreeing isn't a sign of weakness, it's my own analysis.
Kwaakt wrote: Im not saying they never should get a chance, they should. But lowering the unban time of a cheater? ddosser? :think: :doh:
Yes, that's my view.

Unlike real life, we can in most situations catch the culprit here and put them back where they came from. It's a few minutes harm at most juxtaposed to a potential positive regular I think it's a beneficial investment.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Kwaakt »

Shadi wrote:"Even so kind" we aren't royal family, world or country leaders. We are gamers.

I didn't say it wasn't a legit bantime, just said that I think it should be lower.
Its called a "permban", permanent. So we are kind if we remove it.
Shadi wrote:I refuse to see my kindness in this matter as weakness. I also dissent with your appraisement on the matter.
Jailbreak and the community's upheaval commenced 2009, so being banned for a year is being banned 1/6 of the community's existence.
365 days are almost 9000 hours, I fail to see how this is a short time - personally. Again, this is my opinion on the matter; I am not saying you are wrong because we all have our opinions. I am just stating that I do not concur with your view and me not agreeing isn't a sign of weakness, it's my own analysis.
Your kindness is also your weakness. But thats not what we are discussing here. 1 year is for a 15 year old an insane long time. And most of the time its needed to understand the fact what mistake is. And more: What the result of your own act is. If you, on purpose, ddos the servers. Its an act what should be punished. Infact people in the netherlands are going to jail for it. Then at least 1 year is realistic to be banned from a gaming community. In my eyes. It should be way longer. A ddosser does on purpose harm to the servers. Wich results in downtime. And maybe not only our sites. If you do something like that you shouldnt be handled nice. No you deserve what you asked. Sit out your bantime. Its a serious thing. And you fail to see that. Sometimes you should not be kind. You fail to see the harm they wanted to do.

You are to nice to players that ddossed. Its an attack they did.
Shadi wrote:Yes, that's my view.

Unlike real life, we can in most situations catch the culprit here and put them back where they came from. It's a few minutes harm at most juxtaposed to a potential positive regular I think it's a beneficial investment.
I think too. AFTER you have sit out the result of your own actions. Then you get another chance. Otherwise everyone is gonna do it.. ohh shadi wants to unban me sooner anyway. I can live with a 5-6 months (or shorter). So im gonna ddos. Thats not what you want.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Shadi »

Kwaakt wrote:
Shadi wrote:"Even so kind" we aren't royal family, world or country leaders. We are gamers.

I didn't say it wasn't a legit bantime, just said that I think it should be lower.
Its called a "permban", permanent. So we are kind if we remove it.
Nop, it's called permanent because without making an appeal to make that different it stays that way.
Shadi wrote:I refuse to see my kindness in this matter as weakness. I also dissent with your appraisement on the matter.
Jailbreak and the community's upheaval commenced 2009, so being banned for a year is being banned 1/6 of the community's existence.
365 days are almost 9000 hours, I fail to see how this is a short time - personally. Again, this is my opinion on the matter; I am not saying you are wrong because we all have our opinions. I am just stating that I do not concur with your view and me not agreeing isn't a sign of weakness, it's my own analysis.
Kwaakt wrote: Your kindness is also your weakness. But thats not what we are discussing here. 1 year is for a 15 year old an insane long time. And most of the time its needed to understand the fact what mistake is. And more: What the result of your own act is. If you, on purpose, ddos the servers. Its an act what should be punished. Infact people in the netherlands are going to jail for it. Then at least 1 year is realistic to be banned from a gaming community. In my eyes. It should be way longer. A ddosser does on purpose harm to the servers. Wich results in downtime. And maybe not only our sites. If you do something like that you shouldnt be handled nice. No you deserve what you asked. Sit out your bantime. Its a serious thing. And you fail to see that. Sometimes you should not be kind. You fail to see the harm they wanted to do.
Wanted = past.
+ I still think it's too long, again it's my opinion. I don't see why you are continuing the conversation when we both stated our opinions.

Kwaakt wrote: I think too. AFTER you have sit out the result of your own actions. Then you get another chance. Otherwise everyone is gonna do it.. ohh shadi wants to unban me sooner anyway. I can live with a 5-6 months (or shorter). So im gonna ddos. Thats not what you want.
I think several months are long to sit out.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by The Beard »

I'm with kwaakt on this one but then I've always swayed to the more strict side, I do agree people deserve a second chance, you hack, you grow up and you get that chance if you ask for it. I do however find trying to shut down the servers with a ddos a way worse offence than hacking, even more so if you then try to target individual members of the community, at the end of the day the role of the admin is to protect the servers, keep them ticking and see to the fact that the community's members are protected and happy for a good gaming experience.

In my opinion (others will differ and that is fine) the whole side of moderation has gone too soft and that is part of the reason why I am just a player now and don't see myself returning to an admin role.

As for the decision that has been made, it's out of our hands and in the hands of admin, they do and can only do what they feel is best, the guy gets his chance and I hope he uses it wisely, I also hope that if he does act up, get banned and decide to go on a ddos revenge spree again that one of the admin will have the time and be active enough to chase after the multiple accounts attacking the loyal regulars, respond to the people pming on steam asking for help as someone is continually fucking up the server, advise them on what to do being as there internet connection is now fucked and take the initiative to warn and advise people on how to avoid it both in game and on the forums.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Kwaakt »

Shadi wrote:Nop, it's called permanent because without making an appeal to make that different it stays that way.
Permanent is permanent. So if you make a succesfull unban request. The first ban should not be called permanent. But temporary. But thats discussing the meaning of a word and doesnt make any sence.
Shadi wrote:Wanted = past.
+ I still think it's too long, again it's my opinion. I don't see why you are continuing the conversation when we both stated our opinions.
Yes it is the past, and therefor you have to sit out the concequences that are related to a serious offensive act you have done.

To be more specific why ddossing is serious. This year (late august), in the Netherlands a cable company that delivers internet to millions of people got attacked. Yes a simple ddos. But over 1,8 million connections (read many more persons) were disabled. For two days almost 40% of the netherlands had trouble with their internet. It turned out to be 5 young people between 14 and 17 (!!!) and one that is 21 year old. The leader was 15 year old. Yet they were able to generate alot of financial damage. They were arrested (just a week ago), risk (years) of jailtime and financial trouble.

Ofcourse you cant compare the scale. They were tracked by the police already. But just that month before they only attacked, you can guess it, gaming sites.

So why? is ddossing not very offensive to this community? Why should you, if you decide to do ddos, participate in this community that fast again? Because they are sorry? Yes ofcourse. they should get a chance. Cause we are just a gaming community. But, if you really want it, you have to sit out some time. and several months is easy. Just a few months. No a year sounds long. And it is long. But thats what you get if you decide to ddos. Maybe even longer is better.
Shadi wrote:I think several months are long to sit out.
Thats not true. several months are gone quite fast. Ive seen people risking just several months of bantime cause its "worth it". A year is quite long. I have also seen people saying: Im not gonna risk a year. Its that time they have to realise if it was actaully worth it. Ive seen many players that came back AFTER that year and realised what their actions were.

You have to realise that ddossing is nowadays (far) worse then cheating. And it should not be tolerated. With just several months you giva a absolutly wrong signal.
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Re: Unbanning players that DDossed

Post by Shadi »

Kwaakt wrote:
Shadi wrote:Nop, it's called permanent because without making an appeal to make that different it stays that way.
Permanent is permanent. So if you make a succesfull unban request. The first ban should not be called permanent. But temporary. But thats discussing the meaning of a word and doesnt make any sence.
Permanent can also mean indefinite
Can also mean that without essential change it stays still
Can mean everlasting as well, but that's clearly not the intended usage of the word here.
Shadi wrote:Wanted = past.
+ I still think it's too long, again it's my opinion. I don't see why you are continuing the conversation when we both stated our opinions.
Kwaakt wrote: Yes it is the past, and therefor you have to sit out the concequences that are related to a serious offensive act you have done.
Kwaakt wrote: To be more specific why ddossing is serious. This year (late august), in the Netherlands a cable company that delivers internet to millions of people got attacked. Yes a simple ddos. But over 1,8 million connections (read many more persons) were disabled. For two days almost 40% of the netherlands had trouble with their internet. It turned out to be 5 young people between 14 and 17 (!!!) and one that is 21 year old. The leader was 15 year old. Yet they were able to generate alot of financial damage. They were arrested (just a week ago), risk (years) of jailtime and financial trouble.
Yeah, there's a difference with influencing million of people's financial life in comparison (you said it yourself) to a few minutes of gametime. Plus the judgement system in Netherlands doesn't have to be coherent to nD's. Nor are we police to actually track and judge people for this.
Kwaakt wrote: Ofcourse you cant compare the scale. They were tracked by the police already. But just that month before they only attacked, you can guess it, gaming sites.
Kwaakt wrote: So why? is ddossing not very offensive to this community? Why should you, if you decide to do ddos, participate in this community that fast again? Because they are sorry? Yes ofcourse. they should get a chance. Cause we are just a gaming community. But, if you really want it, you have to sit out some time. and several months is easy. Just a few months. No a year sounds long. And it is long. But thats what you get if you decide to ddos. Maybe even longer is better.
For me it's not fast. I really don't see how it's so hard to comprehend that our views and perspectives of how long one year is are entirely different.
Kwaakt wrote: Thats not true. several months are gone quite fast. Ive seen people risking just several months of bantime cause its "worth it". A year is quite long. I have also seen people saying: Im not gonna risk a year. Its that time they have to realise if it was actaully worth it. Ive seen many players that came back AFTER that year and realised what their actions were.
I may have once in my admin career heard someone say "if i get banned for 6 months so what I will come back after" no most ppl think they're gonna be gone for good then.
I could see this argument if it was a month or so.. as I said our perspectives on times are different. I think we should just agree to disagree.
Kwaakt wrote: You have to realise that ddossing is nowadays (far) worse then cheating. And it should not be tolerated. With just several months you giva a absolutly wrong signal.
Again, I haven't argued about which one is more severe.
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