Permamod Demotion: HATER

Should Hater be Demoted?

Poll ended at Sat May 23, 2015 5:10 pm

Yes, demote him to normal player.
9
36%
No, he should remain a Permamod.
16
64%
 
Total votes: 25
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Rainboy
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Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Rainboy »

Shadi and I are starting the process of demoting Hater from his role as Permamod. We currently expect this to be a temporary action (provided the community agrees) and hope to have him back in the future.

Our reasoning for requesting demotion is twofold:
  • Hater has been generally unavailable recently due to real life, even afking out of a game he was hosting recently. While we encourage him to have his priorities straight and deal with real life issues over internet ones, we need Permamods that can be reached regularly. Until his activity improves, we would like to remove him from his role here.
  • Several months ago, Hater's behavior was very unbecoming of a Permamod. Rather than demoting him, Shadi and I worked with him to draft and agree to a resolution that would define how he was to behave going forward. A copy of the document is quoted below for your review. It is our opinion that Hater violated the clause about host badgering during MMage's game - both when he created his role and when he misunderstood my role (the Information Expert). We have tried to resolve the issue and allow him to speak with us to tell us his side of the story, but he has been unavailable for any length of time when Shadi and I were online (which is a large portion of the day) for the last month or so.
Rainboy wrote:This thread documents the agreement reached in regards to Hater.

First off, a list of your charges (in order of both scope and importance to me):
  • You share private hosting or Permamod related information related to disputes, causing drama and showing disrespect to the person you have a dispute with.
  • You badger hosts when they don't give you answers you like and when you think you have a logical basis for arguing otherwise, showing disrespect to the host who is giving of their time to make sure the game runs smoothly.
  • You personally attack players in game for no reason but to rile them up to gain information, showing disrespect to the other players.
Now, the terms:
  • You unconditionally promise to fix charge one and two. Namely, you will refrain from bringing private matters out in public and from sharing them with unrelated people, and you will refrain from badgering hosts. As a Permamod, it is not usually wrong for me to be aware of issues in the community, so you are free to discuss problems with me and have no excuse to violate this. In the event it deals with game related information and I am still alive, I advise you to use extreme caution.
  • I will leave charge three to you to decide how to proceed, but I reserve the right to bring this up again if it reaches unacceptable levels in my opinion. As with this one, I promise to give you time to argue your case before I take any action, and will take into consideration your performance in regards to charge one and two as I decide how to proceed.
  • You promise that you will willingly resign your position as Permamod instantly and without a public vote if a majority of the remaining Permamods (besides yourself) believe you have violated term #1 (charge #1 or #2). I promise to include you in at least some of our discussion about it prior to any Permamod vote.
  • You agree to obey the spirit of these terms and not merely the letter.
Definitions:
  • Private hosting or Permamod related information related to disputes (charge #1): A private matter in this context is any issue between you and a host or Permamod. Exceptions are made for public discussion arenas where the content is implied to be up for debate (such as a game that is in pregame setup, and thus has the implicit request that potential players evaluate it for holes and issues) and for cases when the other party consents (either privately with you, or by making your issue public in a way that directly implies that the issue is your issue).
  • Badgering the host (charge #2): continuing to press any issue with the host after the host has decided on an issue. Exceptions are made if the player asks the host if the conversation can be reopened and the host allows it. If the issue is severe enough, Permamods may be contacted in lieu of badgering the host further.
  • Personal attacks (charge #3) will be defined upon request or at a later date, if needed.
If you agree to these terms, Hater, post here saying as much.

Per usual, we will need two motions (not including Shadi or I) before a vote can be opened. If two motions are granted within a week, we will have a week long majority rules vote on the issue. Motions should be put in bold red to ensure it's extremely clear what you intend to do.

Sincerely,
Shadi and Rainboy


PS by Rainboy - If more details are needed, they can be requested here; however, I do not wish to air Hater's dirty laundry if it can be avoided, and sincerely hope that he can return to his post as Permamod at some point in the future. Even during this demotion process, I request that everyone show Hater the utmost respect for his several years of diligent service here. It has been my pleasure to work with him, and it brings me great sadness to present this before you today. Though we frequently disagree on a wide variety of things, I value the variety of opinion, motivation and insight he has brought this community over the last several years.
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by wertydoo »

Seconded
I claim Spider Man :trollface:
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Konijn »

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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Maki »

I veto this vote..

oh wait I don't have that power.

Anyway HATER can be obnoxious but I haven't really seen him do anything with his powers and quite frankly I could care less - demoting him won't make him stop being obnoxious all of a sudden.

BTW; a few months ago goes way back to 'July 2014', that's 10 months ago. I'm not sure what happened back then because I didn't really pay attention but that's pretty much very old stuff. I don't see someone being inactive and being unable to reply to your concerns as a reason to demote someone either. This feels unnecessary.

Also I'm uncomfortable with going in with a vote where the other party can't answer or defend himself due to having life issues, this is a one-way fight. We only get one (or two if MMage cares to reply) sides and not the defendant's response to accusations, this is really backhanded.
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Rainboy »

Maki wrote:BTW; a few months ago goes way back to 'July 2014', that's 10 months ago. I'm not sure what happened back then because I didn't really pay attention but that's pretty much very old stuff. I don't see someone being inactive and being unable to reply to your concerns as a reason to demote someone either. This feels unnecessary.
Why wouldn't you demote someone for being inactive? Permamods are the keepers of the community; they should be held to high standards, including being active.
Maki wrote:Also I'm uncomfortable with going in with a vote where the other party can't answer or defend himself due to having life issues, this is a one-way fight. We only get one (or two if MMage cares to reply) sides and not the defendant's response to accusations, this is really backhanded.
Every attempt has been made over the last month to contact him and work it out. He's played league games and idled on the TS server. He always manages to disappear just when we want to talk with him. He has real life issues, but at some point, issues need to be dealt with before they become, as you say, "very old stuff." While we have occasionally be able to speak with him, it has never been with both Shadi and I online, and it is my firm belief that he has not put forth reasonable effort to answer our questions.
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Rainboy »

I see two motions, so I have opened voting. Neither Hater nor I is allowed to vote in the poll, but the rest of you have one week to cast your vote. I have enabled revoting, in case anyone changes their mind during the course of voting.

Discussion is still open here. Voting will be restricted to only Werewolf players (who have completed at least one game without being modkilled), and Hydras and fake accounts are not allowed to vote. Shadi will verify and remove invalid votes.
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Lien~ »

Maki wrote:I veto this vote..

oh wait I don't have that power.

Anyway HATER can be obnoxious but I haven't really seen him do anything with his powers and quite frankly I could care less - demoting him won't make him stop being obnoxious all of a sudden.

BTW; a few months ago goes way back to 'July 2014', that's 10 months ago. I'm not sure what happened back then because I didn't really pay attention but that's pretty much very old stuff. I don't see someone being inactive and being unable to reply to your concerns as a reason to demote someone either. This feels unnecessary.

Also I'm uncomfortable with going in with a vote where the other party can't answer or defend himself due to having life issues, this is a one-way fight. We only get one (or two if MMage cares to reply) sides and not the defendant's response to accusations, this is really backhanded.
I completely agree with Maki! (for once x))

Also, OP post looks like a damn Police Report O.o

Also, isn't it time to promote MMage to PermaMod?
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Pr0Gr4mm4 »

ye Mmage for mod:D
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Shadi »

Maki wrote:I veto this vote..

oh wait I don't have that power.

Anyway HATER can be obnoxious but I haven't really seen him do anything with his powers and quite frankly I could care less - demoting him won't make him stop being obnoxious all of a sudden.
Yea and we shouldn't have an obnoxious permamod.
Maki wrote: BTW; a few months ago goes way back to 'July 2014', that's 10 months ago. I'm not sure what happened back then because I didn't really pay attention but that's pretty much very old stuff. I don't see someone being inactive and being unable to reply to your concerns as a reason to demote someone either. This feels unnecessary.
The document is more like, should already have been demoted but on an extremely thin line - he agreed with everything written in it - meaning he fucks up again that's it. + that's when the document was written, not when he was doing wrong stuff.
Maki wrote: Also I'm uncomfortable with going in with a vote where the other party can't answer or defend himself due to having life issues, this is a one-way fight. We only get one (or two if MMage cares to reply) sides and not the defendant's response to accusations, this is really backhanded.
We have tried to ring HATER's phone, talk to him through online chat clients - if he chooses to dodge/not answer; it's his deal.

+ if he's that inactive then he shouldn't be a permamod, it's frustrating coz we are trying to keep a low but active number of permamods. 33% of the team's inactivity can be removed and made the team 100% active again, even if we recruit someone else.

Also, the MMage discussion is not this one if you wanna vote MMage in make another thread.
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by HATER »

Well thanks -- I just learned about this today.

Shame on me for not rushing to fucking neonDragon.net on the week of my sister's wedding, right?

You called me two nights before -- when I already was pressed for time, and I said I could be on ts that night.

I was on ts for two fucking hours -- from 10 until midnight -- and you still couldn't be fucking bothered to talk because: guess what? You were in a fucking LEAGUE GAME.

So, no -- I am not fucking sorry. My family > your bullshit. And that's the way it will always be.


The only thing I regret in my actions concerning you over the past week is that I wasted time out with my family in Orlando answering your phone call and that I wasted two hours that I could have spent prepping for my sister's wedding waiting on ts for a conversation that never happened because you were too busy playing ranked 5's.


I've told you over and over and over -- so many fucking times -- that these few weeks are an absolutely crucial time. You've kept pushing and threatening -- I love this community, but when it comes down to it, my family comes first, period.
You must disregard the statement I am currently making because every statement I make is inherently false.

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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Shadi »

You've knew it for longer that this document has been into play and you know its consequences and you have been online at times where you wouldn't answer - so Rain had one predetermined time to play but has otherwise been available. You wanna put those 2 hours at fault, then so be it.

We've wanted to have one 30 minute convo for weeks, and from what I've gathered with Rain you made that really hard. I've had busy times but found time to be there.

and even if it's for a whole month more you have been inacftive for enough time now, and i personally don't think a permamod should be a permamod if he doesn't have time for it. You can come back and apply later if it goes through, no reason to hold a position for that long for no purpose. It's partially what's breaking the nD admin team and I'd like to not see this again, in comparison.
To be humble to superiors is duty, to equals is courtesy, to inferiors is nobility.

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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Mati »

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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Maki »

wtf mati you voted yes??
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Mati »

Maki wrote:wtf mati you voted yes??
sry was trollvote, might switch to blank if it becomes available... also wtf, where are my voting privacy rights?! :rage:
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Re: Permamod Demotion: HATER

Post by Ricky Rio »

Maki wrote:wtf mati you voted yes??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_ballot
The secret ballot is a voting method in which a voter's choices in an election or a referendum are anonymous, forestalling attempts to influence the voter by intimidation and potential vote buying. The system is one means of achieving the goal of political privacy.
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