Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? (Discussion)

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Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? (Discussion)

Post by Lien~ »

Rainboy wrote:The Permamods have ruled this game unofficial due to unbalanced setup. I have removed the end command accordingly.
Did it not get checked accordingly?
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? [GAME OVER]

Post by Unown »

Rainboy wrote:The Permamods have ruled this game unofficial due to unbalanced setup. I have removed the end command accordingly.
Aren't the permamods (or atleast 1 if the game is closed) supposed to check the game and deem it balanced before the host can start it?
At least it was like that in the past, so either:

1. The permamods didn't do their job
2. The permamods did do their job but deem it unbalanced after the game because they are not good at their job
Last edited by Unown on Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? [GAME OVER]

Post by Maki »

Unownist wrote:
Rainboy wrote:The Permamods have ruled this game unofficial due to unbalanced setup. I have removed the end command accordingly.
Aren't the permamods (or atleast 1 if the game is closed) supposed to check the game and deem it balanced before the host can start it?
At least it was like that in the past, so either:

1. The hosts didn't do their job
2. The hosts did do their job but deem it unbalanced after the game because they are not good at their job
It's 1. The permamods didn't do their job.

And yeah, two permamods played but one wasn't (due to not liking private setups). Additionally, the lover role having wincons shared no matter what alignement they were from etc WAS POSTED ON TOPIC and is now the reason behind it being declined as an official game.

All that because "the lovers were the central point of the game" and "atleast one of the lovers would win (which wasn't assured, the randomisation made it happen)". It's just a bad cover up for their mess to control the balance by the permamod team (and perhaps salty about the way the game turned out to be). It's so damn stupid that games with tons of modkills, then revival then drama count as official, but a game counts as unofficial because one role is the pillar of the damn whole game (and that happens in a lot of other games, power roles are always the people that decide what happens).

That's personally my last game on WW here, I think the way permamods take action nowadays is just terrible. A lot of decision don't make sense and aren't even notified to community players either (anyone knew that cml & MMage have all powers that permamod basically do and count as advisors? I never saw that written anywhere) and stuff like what happens in games nowadays.
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? [GAME OVER]

Post by Lien~ »

Eventhough I wasn't part of this game, I tend to somehow go by what Maki said. This game should have either been checked properly or being left (the outcome) as it was without moaning later on. I find it a blunder and it makes cml look like a bad host (which he is by far not).

I wonder if the outcome would've also been changed to this if it were either of the PMs that had won the game?! If all, I believe including the players in this decision would've been a wiser choice.

But, who am I to complain, right?
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? [GAME OVER]

Post by cml »

I, as host, already accepted that I made mistakes in balancing this setup. If the permamods had been on the winning side here, I would be pushing for this one to be unofficial even if they did not - which I am sure they would have done anyway.

This is not about who has won or lost, it is about the odds of one side or the other winning not being even. There are things that are hard to balance in games and, sometimes, when trying to balance them, mistakes are made.

If I had not believed that this game had been unbalanced, then I would have been asking for everyone's opinion if the permamods had suggested it was. But I do believe that I made a mistake with this setup. As such, both the host (the person with full knowledge during the game) and the permamods believe that this game needs to be unofficial.
Unownist wrote:
Rainboy wrote:The Permamods have ruled this game unofficial due to unbalanced setup. I have removed the end command accordingly.
Aren't the permamods (or atleast 1 if the game is closed) supposed to check the game and deem it balanced before the host can start it?
At least it was like that in the past, so either:

1. The hosts didn't do their job
2. The hosts did do their job but deem it unbalanced after the game because they are not good at their job
It is not about the host or permamods not being good at their job, mistakes happen. People (myself in this case) admit those mistakes where they need to and take steps to ensure that things work out better the next time. Sometimes, when trying new things, it is not possible to foresee every possible outcome. The only way it is possible to have a setup that you are certain will be 100% balanced is if you run the exact same setups that have been run repeated over and over again already.

Even if I had made this setup an open setup, like I will the next one, it would not ensure balance. It doesn't matter how many people look at a setup, it is still possible to miss things.
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? [GAME OVER]

Post by Shadi »

We do things in the best interest of the community and we acted upon what we felt was right to do seeing an imbalanced setup hence we also strongly recommend to do easy/open setups especially in the beginning. I'm not trying to push the blame away from us or place it on CML but I believe most people have decent faith in that CML knows how a setup needs to be and just like any other human being made a mistake this time; I made the same one, he showed me the rolelist quite early in the game and the thought didn't hit my mind. It struck some of us after we saw that Werty eventually controlled the game and could even go for a much harder wincon and still have really good chances of a desired outcome. Instead of protesting like a baby Maki realise why people do what they do sometimes, eat it up and know things don't always go your way you don't have to be like "omg last game on nD WW :'(". You don't agree with everything riot does in league, you still play the game, you don't agree what leaders of your country do and agree more with another country's leaders you still live in your own. You can't satisfy everyone; besides statistics are statistics - the core idea of the game is to have fun while playing it, be it official or not.

I'm not telling you that you don't have the right to complain but I think you're ignoring other people's concerns and intentions coz you overshadow it with your own wishes. Also I agree, advising people shouldn't have the full permamod powers; I wasn't even aware CML had this access before now; I think a separate group should be made for them to be able to read the section but not have any powers other people don't have. Have you ever confronted me or other permamods about your concerns before you start whining about them to the point where you wanna quit and act like we're only doing this to be unfair towards you, to the point where you don't wanna play anymore?

And you of all people complain that others have powers that you shouldn't really have? Just look at yourself, hypocrisy at its fucking finest.

E: + cml fully agrees, he's the host and can make his game unofficial and that's what he wishes himself; so even without permamod interference this game was going to be unofficial; all 4 of us agreed so we assumed no drama but yet drama is magically here.
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? [GAME OVER]

Post by Maki »

cml wrote:I, as host, already accepted that I made mistakes in balancing this setup. If the permamods had been on the winning side here, I would be pushing for this one to be unofficial even if they did not - which I am sure they would have done anyway.

This is not about who has won or lost, it is about the odds of one side or the other winning not being even. There are things that are hard to balance in games and, sometimes, when trying to balance them, mistakes are made.

If I had not believed that this game had been unbalanced, then I would have been asking for everyone's opinion if the permamods had suggested it was. But I do believe that I made a mistake with this setup. As such, both the host (the person with full knowledge during the game) and the permamods believe that this game needs to be unofficial.
Unownist wrote:
Rainboy wrote:The Permamods have ruled this game unofficial due to unbalanced setup. I have removed the end command accordingly.
Aren't the permamods (or atleast 1 if the game is closed) supposed to check the game and deem it balanced before the host can start it?
At least it was like that in the past, so either:

1. The hosts didn't do their job
2. The hosts did do their job but deem it unbalanced after the game because they are not good at their job
It is not about the host or permamods not being good at their job, mistakes happen. People (myself in this case) admit those mistakes where they need to and take steps to ensure that things work out better the next time. Sometimes, when trying new things, it is not possible to foresee every possible outcome. The only way it is possible to have a setup that you are certain will be 100% balanced is if you run the exact same setups that have been run repeated over and over again already.

Even if I had made this setup an open setup, like I will the next one, it would not ensure balance. It doesn't matter how many people look at a setup, it is still possible to miss things.
Seriously, it's not even about who wins. It's about the whole issues lately. Just last game hosted by Rainboy, there were modkills then revival, ton of drama and things of the likes yet the game counted as official and properly fine.

Permamods claim it's not their problem to look at the setup and invalidate games such as this one when we all know how unbalanced HATER's closed games have been in the past.

I feel like games count as invalid only when the permamods feel like it AND NOT WHEN THEY SHOULD ACTUALLY BE. There are tons of double standards and it's becoming blatantly obvious. That and the special treatment there seems to be aswell.

As per what Rain told to me on Steam: "There were plenty of ways to balance the LOVER role" and he didn't bother to check such mechanics because he does not feel it's his problem. It only ever becomes an issue at the end of the game. Why didn't he even ATTEMPT to propose ideas before the game started if he already had seen a flaw back then? I personally don't get it.
Shadi wrote:We do things in the best interest of the community and we acted upon what we felt was right to do seeing an imbalanced setup hence we also strongly recommend to do easy/open setups especially in the beginning. I'm not trying to push the blame away from us or place it on CML but I believe most people have decent faith in that CML knows how a setup needs to be and just like any other human being made a mistake this time; I made the same one, he showed me the rolelist quite early in the game and the thought didn't hit my mind. It struck some of us after we saw that Werty eventually controlled the game and could even go for a much harder wincon and still have really good chances of a desired outcome. Instead of protesting like a baby Maki realise why people do what they do sometimes, eat it up and know things don't always go your way you don't have to be like "omg last game on nD WW :'(". You don't agree with everything riot does in league, you still play the game, you don't agree what leaders of your country do and agree more with another country's leaders you still live in your own. You can't satisfy everyone; besides statistics are statistics - the core idea of the game is to have fun while playing it, be it official or not.
A game isn't fun when all you've done is invalidated at the end of the game. Your example of LoL is laughable, if I win, I get my reward. If I lose, I get my penalty. Here I get nothing when the setup was shown to a permamod and the mechanic that "controlled the game" was publicly available for everyone to see. As to the country example, I can't live elsewhere so I'm obligated to live here, even if I don't want to. Besides that, there are the good and the bad everywhere, sadly it seems all that remains here is starting to be the bad.

Also, I'm stopping to play here because of the bs decision that are taken and the whole bullshit that's always happening. You using your sarcasm isn't going to make you look smarter so quit it, you're not funny.

Quite doubting you're taking decisions for the community since they're never involved anywhere, things are added without consulting and to make it more fit for the permamods and not the other way around.
Shadi wrote:I'm not telling you that you don't have the right to complain but I think you're ignoring other people's concerns and intentions coz you overshadow it with your own wishes. Also I agree, advising people shouldn't have the full permamod powers; I wasn't even aware CML had this access before now; I think a separate group should be made for them to be able to read the section but not have any powers other people don't have. Have you ever confronted me or other permamods about your concerns before you start whining about them to the point where you wanna quit and act like we're only doing this to be unfair towards you, to the point where you don't wanna play anymore?
I actually did funnily enough, go ask Rainboy. I informed him that while I won't interfere, he should inform the community and not leave them in the shadows. Several days later, nothing's happening, you're not informed. Turns out that was a decision Rainboy took alone too. Good communication permamods. I could look at the permamod section and I bet I'd see no topic informing of that decision being taken.

The community has completely disappeared, three people have control over everything and one takes all the decisions lately. That sums up the nD WW community at the moment.
Shadi wrote:And you of all people complain that others have powers that you shouldn't really have? Just look at yourself, hypocrisy at its fucking finest.
I'm not complaining about them having access, I'm saying people should be informed as said by "I haven't seen that written anywhere". This is literally the only thing I complained about. I'm not going to complain about them having additional access, I do aswell and sure it's unfair but atleast people should be fucking notified, especially when part of a community.

Also that wasn't even part of the conversation, good way to try to attempt to bring dirt onto people.

E: Hiding those sections from myself, will not be able to read further replies. gl hf with whatever's left of nD WW.
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? [GAME OVER]

Post by Unown »

Unownist wrote:
Rainboy wrote:The Permamods have ruled this game unofficial due to unbalanced setup. I have removed the end command accordingly.
Aren't the permamods (or atleast 1 if the game is closed) supposed to check the game and deem it balanced before the host can start it?
At least it was like that in the past, so either:

1. The hosts didn't do their job
2. The hosts did do their job but deem it unbalanced after the game because they are not good at their job

I, ofcourse, meant permamods, not hosts.
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? (Discussion)

Post by Shadi »

1) We aren't obligated to check setups yet we’ve done it a lot, there are tons of proof of me doing it asking in public what roles mean and what I think should change; I’ve even PMd people quite a few times about what I think their game could use. As for Rain in this situation, idk how much he knew.
2) Yes my point was valid, we played normal games on league, other games where stats don’t matter once we’re done playing and it’s been worth and a thing you have repeatedly done in the past
3) You claim everything is bad, yet you claim to have enjoyed this game until the point where you saw it won’t count your stats once it’s done
4) The sarcasm was to put emphasis on the fact that you’re being a crybaby
5) What do you find oh so bad that we permamods have forced down your throats? Feel free to speak.
7) What games do you feel like we forced an unofficial/official status on? Go on, I'd like to hear about that tyranny.
6) As for the whole permamod access thing, I fully agree with you there I should have been approached and at least asked; I actually disagree with them having the group that has the full powers without being voted in. Access to read, that’s another thing I could go with and I will tackle that issue soon enough shortly after this one is done.
7) Yes, sorry about the access thing my bad and I clearly misunderstood your point there.
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? (Discussion)

Post by Unown »

To be fair, if they want cml/MMage to be permamod so badly, but they don't feel like there is enough place in the team, then there is an easy solution:

I believe that a mod should be chosen for his knowledge of the game and his ability to choose objectively.
If this is not correct, then ignore the rest of my post.

(NOT a personal attack, just my honest opinion)
Why is HATER still permamod then? In my personal toplist of players, he would BARELY reach top 10 and his ability to make decisions limits itself to wether or not if it's in his own interest to approve/dissapprove something.
Something both cml and MMage are better at.

Cml <-> HATER please
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? (Discussion)

Post by Lien~ »

Unownist wrote:To be fair, if they want cml/MMage to be permamod so badly, but they don't feel like there is enough place in the team, then there is an easy solution:

I believe that a mod should be chosen for his knowledge of the game and his ability to choose objectively.
If this is not correct, then ignore the rest of my post.

(NOT a personal attack, just my honest opinion)
Why is HATER still permamod then? In my personal toplist of players, he would BARELY reach top 10 and his ability to make decisions limits itself to wether or not if it's in his own interest to approve/dissapprove something.
Something both cml and MMage are better at.

Cml <-> HATER please
I'd love to see HATER('s) comment on this :p
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? (Discussion)

Post by Rainboy »

Unownist wrote:To be fair, if they want cml/MMage to be permamod so badly, but they don't feel like there is enough place in the team, then there is an easy solution:

I believe that a mod should be chosen for his knowledge of the game and his ability to choose objectively.
If this is not correct, then ignore the rest of my post.

(NOT a personal attack, just my honest opinion)
Why is HATER still permamod then? In my personal toplist of players, he would BARELY reach top 10 and his ability to make decisions limits itself to wether or not if it's in his own interest to approve/dissapprove something.
Something both cml and MMage are better at.

Cml <-> HATER please
I believe Permamods should be chosen based on (in no particular order) their ability to effectively resolve (and not create) disputes, knowledge of the game, reputation in the community as both a person and a player, and availability in general. The two roles permamods fill are the role of policy maker and dispute resolver, and those four attributes most enable a permamod to fulfill his duties in my opinion.

The reason the permamods have elected not to request an official vote for MMage and cml is mostly due to internal disagreement over their qualifications and the logistics involved. I am not going to start a discussion on the details of that here, but I will say that any player is free start a vote to promote or demote a permamod by posting a thread in Community Discussion. If you, as a werewolf player, feel that MMage and/or cml (and/or even yourself, if you want to volunteer) would make a good addition to the permamod team, or that Hater is not qualified to hold his current rank, you are free to start the appropriate thread.
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? (Discussion)

Post by wertydoo »

Just as a thought, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the best interests of the community are to present and play fun WW games. I've heard from virtually all eleven of cml's players that they did indeed enjoy the game. I can understand that you want to uphold balance but since it would seem the communities best interests were upheld, why did it have to be messed with by the permamods? I think that in light of the fact that the game played well and that everyone enjoyed it that the perms could overlook the imbalance this one time no? It just seems that your actions have upset more than fixed. ^^
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? (Discussion)

Post by Shadi »

wertydoo wrote:Just as a thought, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the best interests of the community are to present and play fun WW games. I've heard from virtually all eleven of cml's players that they did indeed enjoy the game. I can understand that you want to uphold balance but since it would seem the communities best interests were upheld, why did it have to be messed with by the permamods? I think that in light of the fact that the game played well and that everyone enjoyed it that the perms could overlook the imbalance this one time no? It just seems that your actions have upset more than fixed. ^^
Re-read the thread.
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Re: Werewolf XX: A Simple Game? (Discussion)

Post by HATER »

Well, I was offline when most of this was going down, but I suppose I'll respond.

If you want clarification on some of the reasons why it was counted unofficial, please read my post here: http://www.neondragon.net/viewtopic.php ... 76#p402376

Shadi kind of wrecked Maki's arguments, so I'll leave that be -- not much more to say on it.

Rain summed up the answer to Unownist's comment, so I'll leave that as it stands, too.

As for the rest of the comments and commentators, I guess here is what I have to say:


wertydoo wrote:Just as a thought, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the best interests of the community are to present and play fun WW games. I've heard from virtually all eleven of cml's players that they did indeed enjoy the game. I can understand that you want to uphold balance but since it would seem the communities best interests were upheld, why did it have to be messed with by the permamods? I think that in light of the fact that the game played well and that everyone enjoyed it that the perms could overlook the imbalance this one time no? It just seems that your actions have upset more than fixed. ^^
Point being, cml was going to do it regardless.


I think it was a bit ham-handed to say "The Permamods have done X" when cml was in complete agreement and was in fact going to do the same thing, but hey, that's semantics, really.

tl;dr: cml wants this done anyways and if I'm reading this correctly would much prefer there to /not/ be drama. It's his game, and he is perfectly able to count it as unofficial if he wants to -- heck, AFAIK I don't think the permamods could STOP him from counting it as unofficial if he wanted to (the rules are unclear on that point -- another thing we'll be looking into soon). Certainly there is nothing to stop any host at any time to count his or her game as unofficial if they so desire.

tl;dr:tl;dr (yo dawg, I herd u like tl;dr's): It's his game, he was going to count it as unofficial anyways. Quit hounding him (or anyone else for that matter) about it. It's over something that cml has every right to do.


I was offline while most of this went down, but I know that a couple of certain players have been bugging Rain, Shadi and cml about it all day, and I suppose if I'd been on, they'd be sniping at me about it, too. What a mess.


I dunno guys -- if you won't take my word or Rain's word or Shadi's word on the matter-- well, that's your prerogative. But if you discount cml --the guy that made the game -- when he says it was broken... I guess there isn't anything else anyone can do.


Speaking of which -- what exactly WAS the purpose of all this bullshit anyways? Were you trying to get it mandated [Official] just so that you can boost your winrate? That doesn't make any sense -- it's not like you can force cml to make his game official if he doesn't want to (as I mentioned before, I'm not even sure the permamods could stop him from making it unofficial-- I think it only goes one-way).

Was it to try to enact legislation so that this wouldn't be able to happen again? I doubt it-- you've said nothing about that in prior posts.

Was it just to take potshots at cml and the mod team in general? Well, I can't help you there. I could fire back a few of my own, I guess, and we could have a flame war -- but that wouldn't be anywhere near on topic.


The most fundamental problem with this entire thread is that there is no plan, no mandate, no specific action suggested that is legal, solvent, and topical. It's just discontentment for the sake of being discontent.

And to be quite honest with you -- that's kinda dumb, when you think about it.
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