Looking for community feedback on an idea

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HATER
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Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by HATER »

Note: This idea is separate from WW: Comatose, as that game is set as part of the Nightmare series.

Hey everyone,

Everyone that knows my game creating style well knows that I enjoy creating (and playing) games that run in themed series: for instance, the Nightmare Series (DoN, RotN, Comatose) the York Asylum series (Mannerbund, schadenfreude, et al), Rainboy's Boswell Series, etc, etc. Even though creating a series and keeping the theme consistently interesting throughout all its games can be a challenge, I feel it makes for much more rewarding gameplay if done correctly.


What I've been considering in the future, however, would take series games to a whole new level. I'm thinking of running a selection of games across a certain timeframe, each set within the same plot world. The thing is, you could gain advantages in one game that would not manifest themselves until future games in the series, advantages like items, abilities, location knowledge, game mechanic knowledge, and other things.

So basically, you could influence future games based on the game that you would currently be in. You could store up advantages that might not become apparent until much later in the series.

I am fully aware of the logistical difficulties of running such a series (how to reliably track advantages from one game to the next; if a player gets modkilled in one game will he still be qualified for the other games in the series, and if so will he keep his advantages in the following games; allowing for varying player density between games, designing an appropriate power curve system so that newbies don't get shut out with no chance even if they began late in the series; and of course measures to keep snowballing under control).

My question to you as a community is simply this: is that the sort of thing you'd like to see in a few months? Or would you prefer I work on my other ideas that various elements of the community have shown interest in?

(such as "zapper" games, the behemoth SUBWolf [with over one thousand locations and nearly three thousand items total, I've finished only approximately 16% of the game's initial design] RefractionWolf, and of course Boswell: Apocalypse (the lore for which should be up soon))

Anyways, this would still be a long way off from when it would happen, but I would like to get some quick feedback from the community as to whether it's an idea you would want me to pursue.
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Re: Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by Karn »

I like the idea , anf its definitly what game series should be about , but its hard to apply , the game series lays in a long timeline , so people that participated in the first sequal might not find time to rejoin the next one, and finding a sub will require him to go through all the game and its circumstances which will be a little bit hard.

Overall its not a bad idea at all , and if it would happen and if it would succeed it would be one hell of a fun we'll get there, good luck.
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Re: Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by Shadi »

I already dislike items and having imbalanced gameplay, starting with more advantages from the get go coz of a previous game is not something I'd personally like to see no.
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Re: Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by Karn »

Shadi wrote:I already dislike items and having imbalanced gameplay, starting with more advantages from the get go coz of a previous game is not something I'd personally like to see no.
I dont see how its unbalanced since its based on your performances in the previous sequals , in the opposit its actually a chance to do better if you screwed up earlier
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Re: Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by Shadi »

Karn wrote:
Shadi wrote:I already dislike items and having imbalanced gameplay, starting with more advantages from the get go coz of a previous game is not something I'd personally like to see no.
I dont see how its unbalanced since its based on your performances in the previous sequals , in the opposit its actually a chance to do better if you screwed up earlier
so screw up, not have a lot of stuff, inherit that to your next game, good exactly how? O_o
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Re: Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by Karn »

Shadi wrote:
Karn wrote:
Shadi wrote:I already dislike items and having imbalanced gameplay, starting with more advantages from the get go coz of a previous game is not something I'd personally like to see no.
I dont see how its unbalanced since its based on your performances in the previous sequals , in the opposit its actually a chance to do better if you screwed up earlier
so screw up, not have a lot of stuff, inherit that to your next game, good exactly how? O_o
We are kinda talking vaguely here, I mean it all depends on the circumstances of the games , from sequel to sequel the concept actually changes and with that change you might find yourself more advantageous than other players that might have better items than you do.
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Re: Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by HATER »

Keep in mind that as Karn pointed out, concepts and mechanics would change from game to game. Advantages would certainly not always be in the form of an item.

Gaining "permanents" (which is the term I've taken up recently to describe avantages that will affect at least one future game), would also probably not be given simply for winning a game-- they would be more like a fun, diverting side quest. Players would need to find a balance between putting time effort and resources toward the short term win of the immediate game, and putting time effort and resources to acquire permanents that will help them later on.

For instance, let's say you solve a cryptic puzzle in one game and you gain a "permanent", which states that in the next game, which features locations, you will have access to a secret location that has unique effects on you and your abilities.

Some permanents could be "unlocked" like achievements for feats of skill: eg let's say a seer peeks two different wolves correctly in a row, they might get a free tracking ability the next game. That could be an interesting mechanic, especially if clues were given as to what you might do to achieve the prize.

Permanents wouldn't have to come in the form of items, because items wouldn't even be in all games in the series.

As for the snowball, we would want to make the power curve ramp up in a quadratic manner, starting out slow (the starting game would probably be very similar to a plain mafia roleset, and permanents gained during the first game probably wouldn't be so strong. But as the series progresses, rolesets and mechanics would become more complex and permanents discovered would become much stronger to keep up with the more complex rolesets and mechanics of future games.

This way, not only do early leads not make winning later games too easy (a permanent gained in game 1 will probably only have a small effect in game 5 as compared to a permanent gained in game 4, which will be quite strong in game 5), it also allows people new to the series to jump in and not be at a huge disadvantage (though they will be somewhat lacking in any permanents to aid them in their first game in the series.
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Re: Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by Rainboy »

I don't think I particularly like the idea of gaining advantages across games. Either you have to tie it to performance, which will cause problems with modkills, new players and snowballing (though the latter can be fixed), or you have to tie it to events, which (unless done VERY carefully) pretty much reduces it to randomness as far as the poor, unknowing players are concerned.

That said, I certainly do not mind a comprehensive series in which previous games affect future games. I'm thinking stuff like the mechanics in Chaos Rising (though toned down so they do not give advantages, but rather changes) - Luna's Light in the first part had the potential to become either Princess Luna (a villager) or Nightmare Moon (an executioner) depending on events taking in the first part. You easily do the same kind of thing between games, though I would caution you to try to keep it as balanced as possible and not allow one side/player an advantage just because they did well/got lucky/triggered the right event in the previous game. I'm not quite sure how you would go about setting up such a game, but that's probably what's most appealing about it to you. ;)
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Re: Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by HATER »

Rainboy wrote:I don't think I particularly like the idea of gaining advantages across games. Either you have to tie it to performance, which will cause problems with modkills, new players and snowballing (though the latter can be fixed), or you have to tie it to events, which (unless done VERY carefully) pretty much reduces it to randomness as far as the poor, unknowing players are concerned.
I don't think you're understanding my point here: that it doesn't have to be an either/or situation. For most permanents that would significantly affect future games, the player would have to:

a) divert time to solving a [difficult] puzzle or riddle (time that could otherwise have been used to analyze and influence the current game)
b) sacrifice a fairly useful item in the current game to gain a permanent
c) spend time in a fixed and perhaps hazardous location in order to find a permanent
d) use an ability a certain way that it would most likely be more beneficial to use said ability on a different player (for example, a vig might get a permanent if he used one of his shots on himself, but obviously this puts him at a disadvantage for the current game, especially if he cannot find a doctor to help him survive....)

Those were my main ideas for stronger permanents. However, there would also be weaker permanents that would be skill based. The problem here is not with snowballing or new players (because of the sharp power curve between games), or even modkill (as inactives aren't doing anything to benefit the game anyways, so I'm not too concerned if they lose out on permanents or even the opportunity to participate in future games within the series. The problem lies in making the advantages given from skilled play/performance be significant enough that they provide a nice benefit without being so strong and OP that it's an easy win.

Rainboy wrote:
That said, I certainly do not mind a comprehensive series in which previous games affect future games. I'm thinking stuff like the mechanics in Chaos Rising (though toned down so they do not give advantages, but rather changes)
Yech. Talk about neutering the game. The whole point is that by setting future advantages for otherwise disadvantageous or time-consuming activities in the current game, we not only incentivize irregular action (which of course is likely to make you vulnerable, thus creating counterplay)-- people want to give themselves an advantage in future games, not some vague changes to the game's state or an option to choose one's alignment. Advantages need to feel powerful, especially if the player gave up something valuable in a previous game for it.

rainboy wrote: - Luna's Light in the first part had the potential to become either Princess Luna (a villager) or Nightmare Moon (an executioner) depending on events taking in the first part. You easily do the same kind of thing between games, though I would caution you to try to keep it as balanced as possible and not allow one side/player an advantage just because they did well/got lucky/triggered the right event in the previous game. I'm not quite sure how you would go about setting up such a game, but that's probably what's most appealing about it to you. ;)
>not allow one side/player an advantage just because they did well/got lucky/triggered the right event

Which is one reason I've been thinking about making skill-based ("achievement-style") permanents public for all to see the requirements (so players know what they need to do to "unlock" them, but letting permanents gained through sacrificing something/solving a puzzle or riddle in a previous game remain hidden.
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Re: Looking for community feedback on an idea

Post by Gigi »

If I understand what you are proposing; I see two problems you will have to overcome if you go this route.

Number 1- The biggest drawback that I foresee is how this could affect (read: scare off) new players. Complex storylines can be fun, but simplicity has it's benefits. New players to our games can be overwhelmed. Even if they have played WW elsewhere, we tend to have more complicated roles and interwoven abilities than other places. This makes things fun for us, but we need to always keep the newbie in mind if we want our player base to grow rather than dwindle.

Number 2- An occasional reference here and there to a past game is fun and builds comradery among players; but I can see the potential for certain roles to become topheavy. Every character needs flaws and vulnerability (and the ability to be taken out back and strung up on the gallows). If a role has been used for the past 10 games continues to build it's arsenal then that limits how new roles can be added to keep things from stalemating. You would either have to uberload a new role to keep things in balance, or not add new roles at all which would make things feel repetitive.

I'm not saying that you can't run with your idea... only you can truly understand your vision. If you see this spiderweb of awesomeness and how it all works- then go for it. These are just a few things you might want to keep in mind.
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