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#76 Post Re: Babys member position
Styx wrote:
I got his attention? He said hed deal with it, proceeded to not dral with it and then ignored me. He basically did the exact opposite of what you said Nallez. Stop acting like you know anything when it's clear you don't. Please also note that baby didnt reply to ANYTHING I said after his last reply.


Still doesn't change what you did lmao, never said I know everything. I just looked at the demos and they show how you were acting. Ban deserved and hopefully striked when the report is handled.

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Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:48 am
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#77 Post Re: Babys member position
Gal and Romeo, you're welcome to present arguments and evidence but don't start calling names and harrasing. i will keep this open in the condition that you keep it civilized. Count this as a forum warning for bad behaviour.


Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:24 pm
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#78 Post Re: Babys member position
baby wrote:
3- but it didnt not stop with the provoke name changing ( best member / how to be member by amazon ... ) they started toying with words that are similar to the nword styx posted osama saying n word in chat claiming why not punish him and kept on spamming that nword sentence every 10 secs as soon as i try to explain myself they all jump on me with more excuses and more arguments it was clear that all they wanted was to make it hard for me and disturb me make me feel down rather than actually help fix the chaos that they are making in the server that is when uhu gave me the first order for a 4hrs ban

all your answers are in my previous post ( that is if you took time to read it all ) , there are reports with your names on it that shows your bad behaviour + demos that represent the whole story . i did not misjudge you , demos proof that you deserved the ban
and i did not ignore you , as soon as i try to explain why a punishement was given you jump in with your ( buddies ) and start useless arguments on things that are clear
neither of you tried to help fix the chaos rather than feeding it.

you cried about osama saying something and get punished , i told you my cs crashed and that i was going to check logs for it later ( i was already dealing with the chaos in my hands at the time ) and i said " please styx my cs crashed but no worries i will check logs if he said it he will be punished for it " , but you and gal decided to still complain and kept on spamming the "nigger" sentence over and over again and kept on harassing/provoking me with fake names like " how to be member by amazon " gal screaming in her mc " wow baby what anice member " " i swear you are stupid baby the wort member " you even started calling me racist , stupid and dumb and that im gonna lose my membership soon ..... until the point where i decided toi start handing punishement and avoiding long explinations and just putting short sentences like ' next one to use n word in chat for any reason will be banned for 4 hours " " next one to harass will be switched " there was nothing to explain

you created chaos and actions had to be taken for control to be regained , all my attemps of explaining failed because you clearly were not intrested in listening nor helping but to troll with your ( buddies ) and laugh it out like you are the ( cool guys )

you misbehaved and you got punished for it , now you got reported for it aswell all the participants were found guilty by the admins after watching the proof ( much respect to the admin team for being patient with me and actually watching hours of gameplay to be sure and be fair )

now all the points have been discussed but feel free to keep it open , but i won't reply anymore until you actually have something usefull or new to add and also be able to back it up
made up stories with no evidence will be ignored

Ps: all the poeple who need a reply from me , your questions were answered in my previous replies . take some time to read it please
i hope you understand


Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:42 pm
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#79 Post Re: Babys member position
uhu wrote:
Gal and Romeo, you're welcome to present arguments and evidence but don't start calling names and harrasing. i will keep this open in the condition that you keep it civilized. Count this as a forum warning for bad behaviour.

I don't really need to do anything, Mr.Uhu because you were there yourself.

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Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:32 pm
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#80 Post Re: Babys member position
Baby is Report on Styx , Baby should have permission to give permban for like this people , I just watch all demos and Panda , Styx , Larah All of you kept harassing , and provoking him , So Baby didn't do any thing and to be honest We are best friends i'm and Baby but when I do something wrong he give me warn , he moderate me but it's ok! once infinite kicked me and I didn't do any Reaction (provoke , make topic on him...) Just Keep Relax guys why You crying.

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Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:36 pm
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#81 Post 
Nallez wrote:
Still doesn't change what you did lmao, never said I know everything. I just looked at the demos and they show how you were acting. Ban deserved and hopefully striked when the report is handled.


And how was I acting? As far as I can see the biggest problem with me is the sentence that osama said, that I repeated. Was there bad intent in that message from me? No, but you're free to feel that ofc, as I can imagine some people would be insulted by the context of the message, which is why I repeated it to get an action, not as a tool to troll baby. My history of bans/kicks/warns are filled with troll kicks/mutes by doeda a few years ago, and myself banning/kicking me.

Doesn't change what I did, but it changes what you said, it's not true and thus your comment shouldn't even be there. Don't voice your opinion on factual matters, such as this. You might want me banned for it, fair enough, but saying that he gave me his attention is an overstatement, as he replied to me once.

And a note on your previous comment, I did get banned for calling him "such a fucking bigot". 4h ban for racism. I get reported for something quite different, and you know it ( ;) )

baby wrote:
all your answers are in my previous post

I did read your full post, and it's filled with statements that aren't true. The bad behaviour by me is the sentence that is in question, which you can just refer to as the sentence as most people know what it contains at this point. You said you'd deal with it, then you didn't deal with it. You never said you'd check after the game and I told you get someone to check it, because it wasn't okay. When you then proceed to not do anything about it I got upset (for those who haven't watched demos it's around 5 minutes later when some other stuff stir up, I believe it's the panda switch for saying arab boy, but im not sure). You decided to switch panda for that while not even doing anything about osama, and you still haven't reported him for saying what he said, so in the end it's only bad when I repeated it to get attention to it, but not bad if you say it with intent. This only further proves my point that you didn't actually bother doing the work you had to do in order to get Osama punished. You might be friends, I don't know, but it's starting to get too much now baby. Now this is what I mentioned in my report reply:
Spoiler: show
Styx wrote:
I repeat it to you, you tell me to leave it, I explain why I can't then you tell me to leave it. This is where I have major issues with what you're doing, because I'm explaining the situation, then you tell me to leave it and I haven't been gagged yet. I then say DO YOUR FUCKING JOB THEN, and you gag me for saying "the word" a bit later. Not only is it poor moderating it shows you can't take any criticism what so ever. Now you've got me pretty upset because I feel unfairly treated given you muted Osama for 100 seconds for his shit whilst you switch Panda for saying arab boy a few times.


Do you even recognize that you should've acted differently here? If you don't, then we're never going to be able to find common ground.

You keep mentioning my friends, their actions shouldn't affect my report, nor will it. I never went out of my way to disrupt your explanations, because you never answered me, WHILE PLAYING AN ENTIRE ROUND + /LR.

Most of the stuff you bring up was never said by me, so start putting out facts instead of vague generalizations about the people I played with and me.

baby wrote:
' next one to use n word in chat for any reason will be banned for 4 hours "

And I didn't use it after you said it.

baby wrote:
next one to harass will be switched

1st, not the way to moderate harassment.
2nd, I never harassed anyone and you never switched me. You banned me for saying you're a fucking bigot. Saying you didn't is nothing but a lie, as is proven by your report on me, 2nd demo.
3rd, you never actually said this. (please find the place where you did and I'll go back on this, but as far as I can tell you never did)

baby wrote:
you created chaos and actions had to be taken for control to be regained , all my attemps of explaining failed because you clearly were not intrested in listening nor helping but to troll with your ( buddies ) and laugh it out like you are the ( cool guys )

All of your attempts failed because you didn't even bother trying. I was interested in you doing something about the racism with intent but you decided not to do it.

baby wrote:
you misbehaved and you got punished for it , now you got reported for it aswell all the participants were found guilty by the admins after watching the proof ( much respect to the admin team for being patient with me and actually watching hours of gameplay to be sure and be fair )

One admin, not the team.
I didn't behave like an angel, but by no means I hurt anyone, intended to hurt anyone nor did any actual harm to anyone except for questioning your decisionmaking, which you don't like particularly well.
Spoiler: show
Code:
nD* Jail | Baby we discussed it enough dont kill a t if ct is provoking him or you will be switched
nD* Jail | Baby go ask an admin if you feel the need to but i see u kill at when ct provoking him ill switch you
nD* Jail | Baby next time u kill a t without a proper countdown u will get switched

These are a few of your quotes from the jb_temple map. There was no provoking by a ct, but you refused to back down and instead threaten with a switch for not accepting your moderation. This happened over the last few days when I played with you, but this I can't quote you on because I don't have any proof from this. Along with this a few minor rules you're appearently not aware of, but again I didn't get any proof of it.
FYI I've not been punished yet. The admins aren't patient with you, they're lenient and protective over their staff, which they should, but a line has been crossed now.

I've read most of your posts in this topic, none of them are of you claiming responsibility for anything, it's you being arrogant and ignorant towards the servers rules and somehow having Uhu on your side basically accepting all the reports alone is giving you all the backup you need. Please learn from this baby, it doesn't suit you to be wrong.

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Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:34 pm
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#82 Post Re:
Styx wrote:
FYI I've not been punished yet. The admins aren't patient with you, they're lenient and protective over their staff, which they should, but a line has been crossed now.

I've read most of your posts in this topic, none of them are of you claiming responsibility for anything, it's you being arrogant and ignorant towards the servers rules and somehow having Uhu on your side basically accepting all the reports alone is giving you all the backup you need. Please learn from this baby, it doesn't suit you to be wrong.


they did a meeting few days ago about the incident , they reached me and asked for proof & evidence my side of the story aswell .

Styx wrote:
I've read most of your posts in this topic, none of them are of you claiming responsibility for anything, it's you being arrogant and ignorant towards the servers rules and somehow having Uhu on your side basically accepting all the reports alone is giving you all the backup you need. Please learn from this baby, it doesn't suit you to be wrong.


so uhu didnt handle those reports correctly right ? those guys didnt deserve it and i was the one with ignorance and didnt know the rules ? okey

So what you are saying here is that Uhu is making a bad call and backing me up . good to know who we are talking to after all the crap panda / gal / pop / ray / biggern did you say that the judegement was all one sided . im now certain that it is truly a waste of time trying to explain what you did wrong , you can't tell right from wrong apperantely

if i recall correctly you were unbanned by someone then you joined in with a different nick "????????" and provoked me .

you say i play until i get lr , but in truth i was standing still most of the time doing nothing because i was trying to record and discuss with the admin present how to handle all of you trolls, and told him about the way you ganged up on me . there was no way an admin would forgive you for it " regulars "

none of you tried to help me , talk to me show me the way or even said one piece of advice . you cry and cry and complain and provoke harass and break the rules what do you expect ?
You say i could have dealt with it differently but where was your help ? where was your advice ? you only trolled and provked how dare you demand a better moderation when you yourself breakthe rules

if like styx said you are trying to show me that i misjudged you then im sorry but control had to be taken back and the chaos had to be stopped , my actions were backed by an admin who put you back in your places and brought calm back to the server .

if you truly cared about the server and good actions being taken then you wouldn' have trolled , spammed 'niggers' , and provoked me . you would have helped me out and dont dare say its because i didnt punish osama because that is not a reason for you to do what you did and i also said that i wasnt present at the time so i cant take actions on him . checking the logs for is not my job at the time

you say im arrogant and bad but yet you have nothing to back it up , the incident was all your fault i had no bad intentions but to try and calm the server and stop the chaos you started . the report will be handeled im sure if the admins find me guilty than i shall take full resposibility for it and accept punishement
but i will not pretend you are good guys who were harshely punished and that i should take it easy on you because we all know thats not the case and the bans were well deserved . you know the rules and you cross the lines and expect soft punishement


Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:20 pm
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#83 Post Re: Babys member position
I didn't plan to post in this topic before we reached an agreement as an admin team and therefore would have posted the conclusion of all this, but you got me speaking up.

This is more of a serious matter than what it might look to a lot of people. The outcome of this case will change the strictness of moderation back to oldschool standards. It was never officially changed, but with the playerbase changing, allowing nonsteamers on the servers and the community adapting to this, we became more lenient with moderation. Most of the current regulars never experienced the oldschool moderation, including myself, and I doubt it will be accepted by people who are used to a different style. I've been trying to bring this up in private with no luck and I believe thats what the real discussion should be about.

It's no secret that I don't agree with how this situation was handled, the timing of the bans and straight up disagree with some of the bans issued, as well as the instructions baby was given. I believe it all comes down to miscommunication and I see it as the admins (and members) not being on the same page when it comes to moderation styles.

I'm not here to throw baby under the bus and I believe the best solution to all this would be to talk about things. It was a rough situation to be put in as a new moderator and he should have had more help handling the situation.

I still wish to discuss in which direction we should drag the community in moderation-wise, as I don't believe the community is in a state to handle super strict, harsh moderation without losing a bunch of players.

baby wrote:
they did a meeting few days ago about the incident , they reached me and asked for proof & evidence my side of the story aswell .

That discussion/meeting is still going on since we didn't reach a conclusion yet whether other admins agree or not. That is also the reason why the report on Styx hasn't been handled yet, as we simply don't agree on how the situation was handled and should have been handled. I won’t get too much in detail on this topic until we have reached an agreement and conclusion which - hopefully - will find its way to this topic.

baby wrote:
so uhu didnt handle those reports correctly right ? those guys didnt deserve it and i was the one with ignorance and didnt know the rules ? okey
So what you are saying here is that Uhu is making a bad call and backing me up . good to know who we are talking to after all the crap panda / gal / pop / ray / biggern did you say that the judegement was all one sided . im now certain that it is truly a waste of time trying to explain what you did wrong , you can't tell right from wrong apperantely

Uhu should have waited handling those reports till we reached an agreement as a team and he knew that the topic was still being discussed in private.


baby wrote:
none of you tried to help me , talk to me show me the way or even said one piece of advice . you cry and cry and complain and provoke harass and break the rules what do you expect ?

It might have looked like that in the heated situation and nobody can really blame you for feeling like that. There were signs of provocation, but not everyone had the intention of trolling – basically a misunderstanding and misjudgment of some people. You should have been helped by the admin and members present instead of being tested.

baby wrote:
if you truly cared about the server and good actions being taken then you wouldn' have trolled , spammed 'niggers' , and provoked me . you would have helped me out and dont dare say its because i didnt punish osama because that is not a reason for you to do what you did and i also said that i wasnt present at the time so i cant take actions on him . checking the logs for is not my job at the time

Styx didn’t act like an angel like he already pointed out and I’m not trying to justify and saying how he was acting was the right way to approach it. It is however pretty clear from both the chatlogs and demos that his first intention was to help out and then later got triggered by getting ignored and being told to leave it without any actions taken towards the original rulebreak.

    tl;dr:
    I don’t think the situation was handled ideally and I think some of the bans were unjustified – which I know is an unpopular opinion among some people (including some admins).
    We, as an admin team, have some things to discuss and I think it's important that the community gets back on track, a goal is being set and that we are all on the same page. It’s also important to improve the communication among staff members and check up on our moderators. People will have to adapt to the changes that might occur from this, including admins and moderators.

Lastly:
Baby, I didn't reply to drag you down and I hope you can see that it wasn't my intention. I'll be more than happy to answer questions, help you and discuss this further on steam if you would like to.

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Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:51 pm
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#84 Post Re: Babys member position
on the contrary Patrick , im very happy you replied when you did , the incident was messy and its only normal that we disagre on some things . Im happy things are now clear and we can atleast stop pointing fingers at each other and discuss something that will improve the situation
all i want is whats better for the server and the players
im very intresseted in reading the players opinions about the moderation system and their thoughts . Im all eyes and ears


Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:03 pm
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#85 Post Re: Babys member position
Well I haven't watched the demos but I've gotten snippets of the chatlogs and a very detailed view of uhu's perception of what happened after him watching the demos. Patrick also gave me quite a few ideas what happened.

First of all whether a member gets called out or not shouldn't be such a sensitive topic - WE ALL FAIL. And when you apply as a member you already then need to be in the mentality of getting strict and harsh feedback at times. It's part of your position as staff and something you adapt to in your application period. It's a thankless job most of the time. Normally it'd all be on you, but in this situation you were just put in a very brutal situation as a fledgling.

You did handle some of these cases wrong Baby, but it's not really on you when you were guided by an admin and despite two other members being on the server didn't receive the appropriate amount of support. Most people would stumble in your situation even experienced staff, myself included. Players need to understand how it is to try to observe chat, steam chat, mic, console and the bodies/characters of potentially 30 other players on the server pretty much simultaneously since people won't accept you acting in hindsight after having time to analyse.

Without defending Baby here Styx, there's one thing I don't understand in your unrelenting mission of showing that someone did something worse than someone else. You were a member yourself you know that you unconsciously let things go, and not that it's a proper argument but don't tell me you never did that yourself I witnessed you do it - most members have. Why are your expectations from a new member so high, why was this one thing so important to you, something feels off.

Now for you Baby, I don't have an issue with the fact that you didn't handle this situation perfectly I find it more annoying how uhu is your constant straw man argument. You constantly fell back to that fact about admins and uhu. That attitude only changed when you saw Patrick had his own thing to say. You need to find your own balance and how you moderate should be your own style, own up to what you did and realise you can do better it's how we improve. Right now your whole moderation that night was just apism.


As for the direction Patrick is trying to push this topic into.

I don't think we should go back to 2009-2010 moderation style, it was way too ruthless - you said nigger you could be out for days. I mistakenly used the nD menu back when it was bugged and I wasn't member and got 300 (or something) hours ban and 2 strikes, had to bargain it down to 1 strike after making a big case arguing my innocence and persona to an admin at the time (QuickSilver), that strike stayed with me for years until we made the refreshing system. Fuck that shit. You don't see that kind of moderation ANYWHERE today except for on Club Penguin where the vast majority of players are probably 5-11 years old. Even in 2009-2010 moderation like that was rare, but the toxicity that got you banned back then was unusual whereas today it's common. Not saying that's a good thing but that's just how it is.

PS.
Spoiler: show
(QS handled that situation correctly given how cases were handled back then, not talking shit about him he was a great admin)



I think there's more weight to how toxic people online have generally come to be, and the opening of nonsteam on nD that has made the atmosphere so toxic. We had 4-5 long-term trolls on the servers before (like kempa/chillz), now it's a large portion of the server. Yes some of them are still here because of neglect but we have so many tools to cool situations down other than eradicating someone's chance to play on the server. Quality over quantity I agree with, but you don't trim the numbers without attempting to set an example and lead first.

I think we need to aim for 2013 moderation which is: nothing gets ignored, everyone gets moderated but not unnecessarily harsh - the problem to me rn is so much shit is ignored. There's no healthy in between either they get the punishment of their life or they are let go of.

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Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:49 pm
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#86 Post Re: Babys member position
viewtopic.php?f=119&t=32048

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Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:33 pm
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