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#24 (ISO #1)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
Fuck it, [in]

Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:31 am Profile Send private message
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#51 (ISO #2)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
Okay, first off -- I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Claiming "Villager" means absolutely nothing.


Anyone can lie (including the mafia-- surprise, surprise!) , and "villager" is considered the default claim for everyone until otherwise noted. Mafia (and most village power roles) will nearly all always claim villager in the first round.



So, logically, claiming villager is completely null, and trusting people for making an essentially pointless claim actually hurts the village -- if you base even a small bit of trust on someone for doing so (let alone so-called "teams" operating off nothing more than empty words!), then your ability to think critically about them is hindered, because you may not suspect them as much as you would someone else, creating an imbalance (however small) in how you view them.

Claiming villager adds absolutely no new information to the mix -- and because it's pointless noise, it hinders real investigative work from being done.


tl;dr: People can lie, claiming villager is at best pointless (since everyone including mafia will do it round 1), and at worst somewhat harmful because it clouds judgement and contributes to useless noise.

Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:00 am Profile Send private message
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#52 (ISO #3)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
(side note -- I am busy instructing children how to program for most of my day and am not online until 10-11 PM (EST) most nights. Will not be available for many of you european folk.

Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:35 am Profile Send private message
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#56 (ISO #4)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
K0ntRa wrote:
SiX I'm afraid I don't understand. By saying "This is R0, there's no voting in R0 lelz" I ment to say that there is no vote-for-lynch-ing in R0. And you wanted to vote HATER for lynch, is that correct?

Quote:
In the first round, Round 0, you cannot vote if you are not either a mafia member or the deputy, you don't have anything to do in this first round.

Uhh... I made a mistake in that sentence. Forgot to add a "so" between "vote" and "if":

Quote:
In the first round, Round 0, you cannot vote, so if you are not either a mafia member or the deputy, you don't have anything to do in this first round.


The first part of the sentence explains you can't vote anybody for lynch in R0. The second part explains you don't have anything to do in R0, if you are not either the deputy or a mafia member. The second part was just a little clarification for all those who are new to this. So if I'm not mistaken and if I understood you correctly, everything should be fixed now, no harm done. Probably.
I apologize for that mistake.

^this.


Honestly, I'm pretty sure most people who've played mafia before understood what k0ntra meant -- I certainly did.

I find it hard to believe SiX, who has played a total of (12? 13?) games with this community over the past couple of years would misunderstand that -- he knows how the game works.

He also ALREADY knew that there's no voting in r0 (for anyone), and I think most players that have played a game or two before could figure out the problem with what he was trying to say.




Therefore, since SiX...

1. Knew what he was doing at the time
2. Has the ability and experience to easily figure out the problem with the assumption "lol only power roles and mafia can vote on r0", which anyone who's played the game more than once or twice (let alone as many times as SiX has!) would be able to quickly recognize that assumption as false (See: a crock of shit (See also: Maki's entire life)).
3. Since only people who haven't played much before would actually believe him...
and (most importantly) 4. Has asked for village power role claims based on this flimsy assumption,


I think I can solidly suspect SiX of deliberately attempting to take advantage of new players who have village power roles, since new players would be least likely to see the massive flaws in his "reasoning", and he IMMEDIATELY asked for roleclaims right afterwards -- honestly, how suspicious is that?



For this reason, SiX is a major suspect here -- at best, he was extremely stupid, certainly not nearly as capable as I'd thought he was, and therefore a detriment to the village.

At worst, he was a mafia deliberately misleading players who don't know any better into giving up extremely sensitive information to the mafia team.

Therefore, my vote on r1 will go on SiX, and I don't intend to change it unless something even more suspicious comes up. In his current state, SiX is bad news for the village.






My advice to new players who may have found themselves with a Tracker, Watcher, Doctor, or Cop role: TRUST NO-ONE with your role. Honestly, the amount of games that are thrown just because someone accidentally trusts a mafia with valuable information are too many to count. Play it SAFE, especially the first two rounds when you have no info.









@K0ntra: When round 1 starts, please place my vote on SiX. I'm afraid I won't be online when it starts.

Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:10 am Profile Send private message
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#77 (ISO #5)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
I am currently working on teaching java (tomorrow I'll have more time to play WW since I'm off work for the weekend) but for now I'll quickly respond to SiX's points and then add a couple of my own:


(1) In response to "HATER wants the village to stagnate":

Not true. If you look at the role list, we have a Doctor and a massive 3 village investigative roles -- tracker, watcher, and seer (most games of this size have a maximum of 2 village investigative roles). This means that if the investigative roles are CAREFUL and don't get caught and killed by the mafia, they can gather a TON of information and find each other by round 2 or 3 if they are smart.


Hence, my goal was to keep the important information-gathering roles ALIVE past the first round. Pardon me for trying to make sure thaqt our most important roles don't foolishly claim to someone they shouldn't (especially you, given the flimsy reason you gave for you being "safe" to claim to).



(2) All I need to say is this:


SiX is going off my "past behavior" as a mafia. While I don't have the time to dispute why he's wrong on his assumptions about me as a mafia, I will dispute something even better:



I looked back at our WW finished games. Let's look at some statistics, shall we?



Total number of games SiX has participated in with this community: 31

Total number of games SiX has played against me as a mafia: 0




Look it up in finished games -- in fact the only two games SiX has ever been a part of that I've been on the mafia team were WW: Origins (which was a clusterfuck where I got killing r1 for fucking around because it was supposed to be the "last WW game") and Witch Hunt IV where I was revived + converted by the wolf team for 1 round before we won.




Point being: SiX has absolutely 0 experience playing against me when I'm mafia -- which is really weird how he claims to be some kind of expert in how I'm supposed to act when I'm mafia. Again -- flimsy reasoningv -- which seems to be his trademark this game.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Where we go from here:

So, first off: there's a huge bandwagon on SiX with little to no resistance from anyone else. This massive imbalance makes me seriously doubt whether he's actually mafia -- I feel like if he was, his team would be defending him.


So, although I think SiX has extremely faulty logic -- I think there's a decent chance for him to be innocent.



FURTHERMORE:


7 people voting on SiX, and only one other vote (his own, on me -- go figure) gives us VERY little information. The lynch is the primary source of information for normal villagers, and vote tallies can tell a story (mafia will usually vote together, in bandwagons, for instance).


Right now, if everyone votes the same person, we get very little information. So that's another reason I'll be switching my vote off SiX.


I do agree with Leo, though -- there are a ton of afks this lynch, I'd like to see some of them participating more, so I think a good target to get active would be apekiller -- I'm going to try to put some pressure on him so he'll become active, and I encourage all of you to do the same.


The round 1 lynch is about the village gathering information through voting patterns, and a huge bandwagon with 0 opposition gives us NO info.


[vote apekiller]

(someone update the tally please)

I'll probably be afk until several hours after round end.

Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:10 pm Profile Send private message
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#94 (ISO #6)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
NumBle wrote:
I say we lynch hater.

His statistics don't add up. We're talking about Six here. He hosted plenty of games where you, hater, were both mafia and village. If you knew Six, you'd know that he actually pays attention to how everyone plays the game.
You change your vote last minute to apekiller so you could avoid having the blood of Six dripping in your hands.

We both know that Six plays better than that Hater. You got baited hard and you fell for it.

On another note, you all have no reason to believe that I'm village besides being THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS STANDING AGAINST THE LYNCH ON SIX. It can count for nothing. It can count for everything.

Vote Tally:
Hater - 1 - Numble


1. On SiX's lynch

First off, I was the /first/ vote on SiX. I didn't "hop on" a bandwagon -- I placed my vote, and then left to work for 10-12 hours because that is what my job entails.


I did not intend to start a bandwagon -- I simply placed the first vote and left. I'd like to remind everyone that I have only a very limited timeframe in which I can take actions in the evening before I go to bed (IRL).


When I came back during a short lunch break, I saw that a bandwagon had formed. I don't like R1 bandwagons because...


2. Purpose of R1 lynch


In the first round of the game we have very ittle information about anyone. It's quite likely that any round 1 lynch will invariably end with a dead villager (in fact, ~93% of all round 1 lynches in past games have ended with a villager or neut being lynched).



Now, some of you, especially new players, may be thinking "This is terrible! Why do we ever vote on round 1? We should always vote No Lynch if there is such a high chance of lynching a villager!"

And you'd be technically right! That's some solid reasoning, except one thing:

Round 1 lynch is really never about actually lynching mafia -- it's about gaining information about players' alignments through their voting habits.


If everyone voted no lynch on round one, we'd have little information to gather because literally everyone would vote the same thing. It tells us absolutely nothing.



...which is also the reason why a massive bandwagon (a la the one on SiX) is very unproductive -- we get no info from it.


Again, I work extremely long hours in the summer (at a camp with kids that I have to take care of, teach, occupy, etc all day). If I could have changed my vote sooner I would, as it was becoming apparent to me quickly that SiX probably wasn't mafia-- but more importantly, that the town wasn't going to get any INFORMATION from lynching him.


Hence, I changed my vote as fast as I could. I am sorry if this was not fast enough to stop the wagon, but keep in mind that I NEVER encouraged a wagon in the first place. I placed my OWN vote, gave my own reasoning. That was it.


And futhermore -- when I came back, I actively asked people to NOT lynch SiX. Granted, there were only about 2-3 hours left until lynch, but that was the earliest I could respond, and I hoped that would give enough people time to respond.





3. Regarding my reasoning on SiX's death


(If I'm 100% honest, I don't terribly mind that SiX died-- what I'm more annoyed at is that we didn't get any useful info from his death as stated above)

@numble: You do realize that even if you were "sticking up for him" in text, you didn't place a vote at all that round:

Quote:
no vote - 5 - Konijn(injured), Apekiller, zapt0r, NumBle, Lo Tus



-- and if you had already placed a vote by the time I made my second post, I probably would have changed my vote to your target instead of changing it to apekiller (who was the most strangely afk person I could think of at the time).

It doesn't take a genius to know that a decent mafia team would never have let this bandwagon get started on SiX if he was a mafia -- there was way too much sheeping going on for SiX to actually be mafia, and I think most of you can see that now.


tl;r: I was legitimately trying to save SiX -- not because I felt that he was particularly useful to the town (or good at the game in general, really lmfao!), but because having a gigantic bandwagon on him gave the town absolutely no info.




4. Where we go from here:


Well, that's the million-dollar question, isn't it?

It's very likely that a couple of wolves (at least) were in the SiX bandwagon. Wolves love to blend in by "sheeping" (blindly following bandwagons). They place down a vote, don't give much reasoning at all (or just say "lol I agree with x" @ the person whose vote they're copying). As I look past through the posts between my initial vote on six and me changing my vote, I see a lot of posts like this:


StickySteez wrote:
I don't really have a opinion right now, didn't really spoke to people so i'll just follow the flow

SiX - 5 - HATER, !!!*-Leo-*!!!, Ultor, Ish, Sticky
HATER - 1 - SiX



CrisP0 wrote:
i fully agree with ultor, SiX seems the most suspicious person.
[vote SiX]



#BlameItOnLeon wrote:

LOL. I just wake up bro. Well, I can't say much because it's too early. But for what I've read I can't trust 100% Six. So i'll go for it and let's see what happen

[vote SiX]



...just to name a few.



All of these are somewhat suspicious, but I'll choose one to start out with: crisp0 -- mainly because he seems to be following the SAME sheeping strategy this round (and on me this time!):
CrisP0 wrote:
i'm gonna vote for hater this time as he tried to get six dead but he changed his vote to apekiller in the last minutes without giving any reason.
[vote Hater]




So, I'll kick this off with a [vote crisp0].


I hope my post clears up some things for you all. I will probably not be online much tomorrow again (traveling to Tampa to teach at a different camp location).










---------------------------------------------------------
BONUS FACT CHECKING:

@SiX(deceased): Honestly, I really didn't want to lynch you after I came back during lunch -- you should learn not to discredit people who are actually trying to help you.

@numble: SiX has hosted a whopping total of exactly 7 games, 5 of which I've even played in. I've compiled a comprehensive list of them just so you and everyone else can see just how much "past experience" SiX has with me:





List of games SiX has hosted (total 7):

Key:

Red = HATER didn't play (2 games)

Orange = HATER played but was village (3 games)

Yellow = HATER started out village, was killed by the mafia and was revived and converted by the mafia team 1 round before the game ended (1 game)

Green = HATER started mafia, and was randomly shot by a vigilante in the first round (1 game)

Spoiler: show
Werewolf XXII: Triple Trouble
Hosts: SiX
Winners: UnwaveringGrey, MMage, French Connections, Konijn, cml, katCrusader, KyraTrebon, Styx
Losers: NumBle, Rainboy, Lien~, Ricky Rio, machoZeroSkillz, Royal Toon, ishali


Witch Hunt VI: Who Betrays the Betrayer?
Hosts: SiX
Winners: .Cell., ishali, Konijn
Losers: Lien~, Saint Emz, NumBle, cml, Flath, Lawliet, Mystic, JTc, StickySteez








Mafia XVII: The Blackmail
Hosts: Rainboy, SiX
Winners: SenSei, Queijo Da Serra, Styx, Mati, Maltazard, Tomato
Losers: Karn, ~Veghan<3, Big H, Dangan, HATER, Kaitokid, Unownist, Saint Emz, Shadi, Antti, dannie340, Mystic, Big H, cml, H2O, Maki, DTGM, NumBle

Mafia XXII: Who's the Killer?
Hosts: SiX
Winners: cml, Flath, Mystic
Losers: Big H, NumBle, Lien~, Unownist, HATER, machoZeroSkillz, Thor, katCrusader, Saint Emz, ARSENIC, Rainboy, Wertydoo, Dangan, Blaze



Mafia XXVII: The Handymen
Hosts: SiX
Winners: ishali, NumBle
Losers: StickySteez, HATER, Lawliet, Hydra, Saint Emz, machoZeroSkillz, JTc, katCrusader









Witch Hunt IV: Armageddon
Hosts: SiX
Winners: HATER, Rainboy, MMage
Losers: NumBle, Mystic, Dangan, Big H, Ricky Rio, H2O, Shadi, Maki, Unownist, French Connections, Blaze






Mafia XIX: The Corruption
Hosts: SiX
Winners: HATER, Lien~, Big H, Unownist, Karn, Styx
Losers: nBi, Rainboy, Dangan, Juni0r, machoZeroSkillz, Jumps7yl3r, Maltazard, Shadi, Akfny, ~Veghan<3, Mystic, SenSei, cml, NumBle, French Connections, RazoR', Saint Emz, Maki




@Numble: 5 games is not hosting "tons" of games with me and considering that out of the two games I was mafia in that he's hosted, I was mafia for exactly 1 round in each of them...I think it's safe to say SiX was full of shit on that point, lol.

Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:02 am Profile Send private message
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#96 (ISO #7)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
Konijn wrote:
I agree with the previous posters, HATER started a bw on SiX and then when he realised it was unstoppable he switched targets to then be able to later claim "but I said he looks innocent and tried to move the bw off him". Not buying it.


For the last time, I did /not/ "start a bandwagon" -- I casted my vote, gave my reasons, then left for 10 hours.

When I came back from working, I saw what had happened, and switched my vote because I didn't like the wagon that had formed while I was gone. If I had been on earlier, I would have switched sooner most likely, but I wasn't, so I didn't.


I gotta say, I'm annoyed with everyone that voted for SiX that is now accusing me of "trying to start a wagon". I'd like to point out that all of you voted for SiX, too, and everybody seemed to think it was a good idea at the time and that my reasons were valid.

It's interesting how now that SiX has flipped village you seem to have forgotten that you all thought he should be lynched, too.

I refuse to be a scapegoat simply because I called SiX out for making bullshit claims. (one of which he already admitted was bullshit, and another one which can be easily debunked by reviewing finished games)

Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:46 am Profile Send private message
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#101 (ISO #8)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
StickySteez wrote:
Code:
HATER - 4 - Numble, CrisP0, Konijn, Sticky
Crisp0 - 1 - HATER
Konijn - 1 - Ish


Sorry HATER, you tricked us yesterday and I don't trust you being innocent.

I seem afk but read everything.

Seriously? I didn't "trick" anyone. There was nothing "sneaky" about what I did.

I said what I thought, made my vote, and I left.



------------------


You're all acting like I was the only one who thought SiX was suspicious. Do you forget that you all voted on him too or something?

This is shit you all said after I left:



!!!*-Leo-*!!! wrote:
I pretty much agree with this...it looked like he get caught in the R0 and asked to reveal all rolemodels what definitely was to suspicious for me



Konijn wrote:
in this instance, SiX seems pretty fucking suspicious to me. If I could vote (which I cannot due to hospitalisation from the wolfies :<) I would be voting for SiX this round, and I encourage everyone else to also.


Ultor wrote:
The fact that SiX asked to claim roles puts him right on the spot- in addition to the fact that he wanted to quickly eliminate HATER based on nothing at all.





The fact that SiX is dead now does not make his previous actions any less idiotic.

Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:37 pm Profile Send private message
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#130 (ISO #9)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
So, I asked Rainboy to look at the thread. He is coming in from a completely objective point of view here -- he knows nothing about the game or anyone's roles besides what's been written in the thread. These were his thoughts:




Rainboy: NUMBLE ACTUALLY READING A HATER WALL
Rainboy: AND RESPONDING?!
Rainboy: WAT
Rainboy: Here I thought I was the only one who read those.
Rainboy: At least, that's what you'd think watching how people reacted to them.
HATER: Xen does too
HATER: [10:23:56 PM] katCrusader: I agree that it seems really silly to vote you off just because of an unintended bandwagon
[10:24:12 PM] katCrusader: You and rain both like using votes as motivators to initiate conversation
Rainboy: ^
HATER: like, after reading my post, am I just going crazy or what?
HATER: I wanted to get an objective view here
Rainboy: Numble's post so far is facepalm-worthy.
Rainboy: I'm not sure if I should laugh, feel sorry, or get angry at this.

Rainboy: "Oh please, Hater we've played countless games where R1 lynch gave us nothing but discarding vanillagers." -Numble 2016
Rainboy: Yes, and we yell at the village every time.
Rainboy: >.>


Rainboy: "You're forgetting the "Finished games" section" -Numble 2016
Rainboy: wat
Rainboy: like
Rainboy: wat
Rainboy: I just...
Rainboy: wat

Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:37 pm Profile Send private message
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#133 (ISO #10)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
Apekiller wrote:
From a piece of information I now hold, my suspicion now falls upon HATER. therefore I'm changing my vote to HATER.

[vote HATER]

Code:
HATER - 6 - Numble, CrisP0, Konijn, Sticky, Lawliet, Apekiller
Crisp0 - 5 - HATER, Ish, Ultor, #BlameItOnLeon, Leo


...Care to share this information with the rest of the class...?

Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:49 pm Profile Send private message
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#138 (ISO #11)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
Ish wrote:
Why would you need Rainboy's objective point of view to avoid a lynch. If you're village no worries, some of the mafia would have voted for you, so we can narrow the search for the mafia. We'll find them out later rounds...The inverse is also true, some of your mafia teammates would vote for Crisp0 if you do flip mafia. So either way we will have narrowed the search.



Okay, I'll come clean here. I didn't want to tell anyone before, obviously, but


It's now become clear that someone on the mafia knows or at least suspects my identity, so I am left with no choice but to reveal my role or die:




I am the Doctor.


I protected myself last night. I can only assume that I was shot since the mafia kill was not visible.



Numble is claiming Deputy to anyone who will listen. The watcher watched me last night -- Numble targeted me with a peek. This means he is the Don, and he now knows my role. This is why he is attempting to kill me.


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#144 (ISO #12)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
Well, I tried.


It's honeslty gg guys -- 2/3 of the mafia team will be dead by the end of the round anyways.

Zapt0r has requested to be modkilled due to afk and k0ntra has allowed it.



K0ntra has also stated he will not allow a replacement


Me? I could deal with being peeked R1, and what not, and I fought that as hard as I could (close vote indeed -- I think it's safe to say that until the end there I fought as well I could against such damning evidence).

But I can't deal with a mafia team that is just afk all the time. Especially zapt0r, who has literally done nothing all game. Having him dead with no replacement seals our fate.


--------------------



I have also requested to be modkilled as a symbolic gesture.

I would still try to fight and would delay asking for a modkill if I wasn't about to be lynched anyways, but this makes it so that the modkill doesn't affect the game for the one remaining mafia member if he/she chooses to continue playing.

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#147 (ISO #13)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
Konijn wrote:

I'm sorry but you were lynched, requesting a modkill (and being granted it?) is fucking bullshit. stop trying to ruin the game for everyone else.


Exactly-- I was about to die anyways, it doesn't matter to you guys, how I die.

I asked k0ntra, and he was fine with it. It doesn't affect the rest of the game in any way -- the thing that honestly ruins the game is zaptor requesting a modkill, because he would not be dead and the mafia would still have a chance.

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#150 (ISO #14)  Re: Mafia XXVIII: Revenge
Shadi wrote:
HATER wrote:
Zapt0r has requested to be modkilled due to afk and k0ntra has allowed it.

Zapt0r was gonna get modkilled whether he requested it or not for making no game related posts, and you were gonna get lynched either way so requesting a modkill would practically just get someone else lynched which imo shouldn't be granted.

I can see how Zaptor's decisions and AFKing has ruined it for you, and that it's frustrating and honestly it's not that cool of Zaptor either (idk how strong his internet issues are?) but still that sucks a lot because your posts show you fought hard, although that derp at the end was funny (it wasn't intentional was it? xD).



Also, the way I meant it, and the way I thought k0ntra understands it is that I would still technically be the lynch target for this round. It will just also show up as a modkill instead of "lynch" death type.


(also it wasn't, I was just desperately trying to claim SOMEthing before it was too late -- I just figured that the doc could protect himself like in most other games)

Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:28 pm Profile Send private message
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